What is a Sports Car?

"472CID" (472CID)
02/04/2015 at 11:21 • Filed to: None

A while ago I presented a collection of what I considered to be front wheel drive sports cars. Out of the woodwork I received dozens of suggestions, most of which weren't even close to my guidelines or ignored my note ruling out sport coupes and hot hatches (which confirms a theory that most people just read the title and look at the pictures). Now if you take issue with my stance on ruling out sport compacts and hot hatches that's fine, that's an interesting discussion (this discussion in fact).

Multiple people mentioned Dodge Neons, Ford Focuses, and Volvo S60s. To me, calling cars like those sports cars is a bit like calling the Escalade Hybrid "eco-friendly." But what do I know? Perhaps that's the general consensus, so I ask you, what is a sports car?

Now I know for a fact some people around here sports cars NEED to be small and light, and anything heavier than an Elise is a GT. While others, apparently, think anything sporty is a sport car (Celicas, CRXs, and Tiberons) is a sports car.

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I think a few cars are universally agreed upon as sports cars (Miata, S2000, Elise). Some people disqualify bigger heavier cars (Corvettes, Ferraris, Aston Martins). A lot of people would draw the line at having more than two seats (911), many would rule out fwd (Elan), or awd (GTR). What about super/hyper cars are they sports cars?

With that said I open the table for discussion, because what is Oppo good for if not nerdy car debate?

DISCUSSION (82)

MIATAAAA > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:23

For the most part, I think any car designed with with a strong focus on speed and/or track handling is a sports car.

For Sweden > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:25

Fact: Hot hatches are sporty cars, but not sports cars. Their primary development was focused on utility, not driving excitement.

ranwhenparked > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:25

I would say any low-slung, 2-seater car, designed primarily for sharp handling and engaging driving dynamics.

If it fits most of those parameters, but is a 4-seater (eg, 911), than it is a GT car, not a sports car.

TheBaron2112 > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:25

Porsche 911 - No. It's a GT car. But it didn't used to be. It was a sports car until the 996, I think.

Honda Integra - Depends. But I'd say this fits.

Mustang - No. Pony car.

Hot Hatches - No. They're Hot Hatches.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:26

I'm in the small and light category. Sports cars are supposed to be built for sporting. Once you compromise that, it's built for touring. The Mustang is a GT. The BRZ is a sports car.

472CID > For Sweden
02/04/2015 at 11:28

I agree, but the amount of people who are adamant the Focus RS is a sports car is surprising.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:29

2 seats, RWD, meant for racing

That's it, nothing else.

Justin Hughes > MIATAAAA
02/04/2015 at 11:29

"Designed with," yes.

Toyobaru: Yes.

Focus ST: No. The Focus was designed to be an economy car. Then they made an excellent fun-to-drive version with very sporty qualities. But that doesn't make it a sports car.

WRX: Maybe? Previously I would've said a definite no, because, like the Focus ST, it was a souped up Impreza. Now they've made the WRX an independent model, so technically, it could be a yes. But it's still very much Impreza based, so it could be a no. But the Toyobaru shares some mechanical parts with the Impreza, so... *brain explodes*

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ranwhenparked
02/04/2015 at 11:29

I disagree, as a GT car is softer and more manageable for long drives. The 911 is still a GT to me, but the GT3 RS is a sports car because it's so stiff and has limited cargo room. A GT car isn't necessarily a corner carver. I call the old buick rivieras GT cars because they were stylish, quick, four seat coupes designed to eat miles. They handle like drunken rhinos but it is the type of car that puts a smile on your face. It's a bit vague, but that's my definition - a GT car should be comfortable for days on end, usually more on the luxury side of things, and keep a smile on your face by just being itself.

For Sweden > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:29

Those people are wrong.

McMike > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:29

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These days, it's just another internet argument.

472CID > ranwhenparked
02/04/2015 at 11:31

Is a Nissan Z with 2 seats a sports car and a Z with 4 seats not?

472CID > MIATAAAA
02/04/2015 at 11:31

What about sports sedans like an M5?

dr861 > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:32

The actual definition of sports car is very loosely described. Same with Super car and Hyper car. I think the reasoning being that there are so many acceptions to each category. This is the definition of sports car as defined by merriam webster: "a low, small car that seats two people and that is made for fast driving". The definition of supercar is simply: "a superior car." Lots of room for interpretation.

roflcopter > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:34

That particular sports car is a 944.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > For Sweden
02/04/2015 at 11:34

What is a sports car if not a car used for sport?

STis and Evos are out of the box rally cars, even if the original platform was meant for economy/utility.

472CID > McMike
02/04/2015 at 11:35

But internet arguments are fun (sometimes)

Kinja'd!!!

Aaron M - MasoFiST > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:36

The terminology debate can be done to death, but way back when there was a consistent definition. A sports car was a light two-seater which was designed for handling. This meant talking about British and Italian roadsters, for the most part. The Corvette was arguably the car that made the line blur as GM crossed the European sports car sensibility with the American need for power.

If we go back to the original definition, the Miata and *maybe* the FR-S/BRZ are sports cars, along with the Boxster/Cayman and 4C. Anything with a rear seat is out, and fixed-roof cars are questionable depending on how orthodox you want to be. But therein lies the reason this turns into a debate: the old definition is essentially useless.

In 1955, you really couldn't buy a family sedan that handled like an MG TF, engineering of the day made it very much one or the other. The line started to blur right there with the Corvette, and got even blurrier when the 911 got a backseat. Now, any car of any shape can be engineered to handle well, and go like stink. So why exactly does it matter what we call a sports car any more? I'd say stick to the old definition, and judge the cars by singular devotion to functionality rather than absolute performance. By that standard, none of the suggested cars above are sports cars. And if that bothers you, you should probably go outside and get some fresh air.

ranwhenparked > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:36

Yes

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 11:36

What if it has one seat?

ranwhenparked > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/04/2015 at 11:37

Old Buick Riveras were personal luxury coupes, not GTs. The personal luxury coupe is the plump American cousin of the GT, but with total focus on comfort and zero focus on handling.

472CID > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 11:37

I feel like there's a lot of slam dunk sports cars that never raced, a BMW 507 for example.

AJ Feldman (alecmets2011) > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:38

How the heck is a Mustang NOT a sports car?

MIATAAAA > Justin Hughes
02/04/2015 at 11:40

But Focus RS? I think it's a sports car.

472CID > TheBaron2112
02/04/2015 at 11:40

So an Integra is, but a 911 isn't? Now I've heard everything.

MIATAAAA > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:41

I would call an M5 a sports car. I have a very broad definition of sports car, I suppose.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:42

My opinion is that a sports car must have only two seats and be purpose built for driving performance or fun.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > TheBaron2112
02/04/2015 at 11:44

The 911 was a sports car until the 997 or 991.

GhostZ > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:45

A sports car has to have 2 qualities:

1. The capability to engage in automotive sports (namely, it has to be able to drive at 10/10ths reliably)

2. A level of relevant competition and the intent to win.

And possibly a third thing:

3. A lack of compromise in the prior two in the interest of cost.

A sports car can be cheap because it is uncomfortable, simple, or unsafe, but it cannot be cheap because it isn't fast.

HammerheadFistpunch > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:46

voted yes to all because "sports car" is a meaningless designation in terms of hard and fast definitions.

472CID > Aaron M - MasoFiST
02/04/2015 at 11:47

Definitions change and evolve. Obviously the perception of a sports car isn't the same as it was in the 1950s, but it's interesting to see where the consensus lies. Some people adhere to that old standard, while others think anything under the sun can be a sports car, I think it's pretty fascinating.

Aaron M - MasoFiST > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:49

It's certainly a fascinating conversation. I think the important thing to remember is that the term evolved from an era when there was a level of performance cars couldn't achieve without certain form and function sacrifices...in an era of 700hp sedans which still return 25 mpg highway, it's hard to see that functional definition as useful.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:49

Do you use your car for sportsing?

It is a sports car.

Kinja'd!!!

See also, my car sportsing, thus making it a sportsing car.

Kinja'd!!!

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:50

Unified Theory of Performance Cars.

Performance car is an umbrella term for all formats of automobile that purports to have speed or handling prowess beyond the average.

Sport Coupes, Sport Sedans, Sport Trucks, Sport Wagons, Hot Hatches, etc... are all sub-categories by body-style.

A Sports Car is something specific. A purpose-built, idealized automobile that makes no structural concessions for practicality or anything that detracts from the vehicle's performance purpose. The wheelbase, track width, chassis layout, suspension design, braking and engine specifications are chosen to support, but not detract from handling performance.

That means no extra length and mass for a second row of seats, 2+2 sports coupes are not strictly sports cars. Mustang, M3/M4, Fwd hot hatches and coupes, like Civic, are Sport Coupes, not strictly defined Sports Cars. (I'll cover Porsche 911 below)

That means no FWD, and likely not AWD. FWD is antithetical to weight transfer and steering feedback, as well as weight balance in the chassis. AWD can perform better, but still not usually ideal, although exceptions for AWD MIGHT be considered for mid-engined or rear-engined cars that are not too front heavy, and are rear-torque biased, and can demonstrate HIGHER performance with front assisting traction, than without it.

That means not an large, opulent interior with lots of heavy options like 67-way leather heated and cooled power seats. Nice for a Grand Touring Coupe, which can be a performance car, but too much mass for a sports car.

A race car is not a sports car, although sports cars often make good conversions to race cars, but other performance cars can be used as race cars, also. A Sports car is designed for purity of feedback to the driver, and while it makes a sports car fast, the focus is the car serving the driver ideally. A Race car is built toward similar goals, with similar effects, but is ultimately a competition car, judged by time, not by the driver's satisfaction.

A 4-door, a 5-door, a wagon, a CUV, a truck... are not idealized platforms, and are not sports cars. Optimized versions of those pragmatic platforms can be performance cars.

The 911 caveat. Porsche 911 is rear engined, which leaves room in the cabin for vestigial rear seats, making it technically a 2+2. That should disqualify it... however, it might justify an exception. The car would not be any shorter without the rear seats. GT3, 2.7RS, and other versions of competition 911s have the rear seats removed, but also in the first generation, and in subsequent evolutions, wheelbase was shown to make the car perform better when increased, and short wheelbase versions are less consistent with handling, making longer-wheelbase 911s better sports cars, not worse. And for the increase in wheelbase, the body didn't gain much mass. New 911s may be getting big enough, however, to truly be considered Sport Coupe 2+2s, or Grand Touring coupes, with the Cayman/Boxster 2-seat mid-engined cars taking the sports car moniker more solidly.

A shorter 911 is not necessarily a better one. I would argue that a 911 without rear seats installed is a sports car, and with rear seats installed, might be one of the only 2+2s that could potentially get an exception as a sports car, rather than a less-focused, more open sport coupe class. A mid-engined car doesn't suit a 2nd row seat very well, and not many have ever been equipped with one. A front-engined 2+2 car almost always has a longer wheelbase than necessary to accommodate the rear seat area, and that increases the mass of the structure, which has an impact on the performance of the chassis, as a compromise.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:51

I always say that there's no line in the sand when it comes to whether a car is a ports car or not.

That way I see it is that there is a spectrum, with a true sports car like a Caterham 7 or an Ariel Atom at one end, and a GT like a Benz SL at the other.

The only thing that I can truly think of that differentiates these two is concessions to comfort and practicality.

-A Caterham 7 compromises very little in speed to ensure its occupants are comfortable. It is a sports car.

-The SL has a lot of compromises (boot space, sound deadening, general weight, a folding hard top) to try and make its occupants comfortable, offsetting those compromises with a socking great engine to keep up any semblance of speed. It is a GT car.

Every car with sporting pretensions is on that spectrum, but falls somewhere in-between.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:52

Meant for racing and actually ever getting to race are 2 separate things.

E. Julius > ranwhenparked
02/04/2015 at 11:53

???

Justin Hughes > MIATAAAA
02/04/2015 at 11:53

I don't. Again, economy car based, not built from the ground up to be a sports car, despite extensive modifications to make it legitimately quick. Same goes for the STi. But that's just my opinion.

So my BRZ is a sports car, but the Focus RS or STi that could totally smoke it in just about any performance contest isn't. Now that's starting to sound a little funny... *brain explodes again*

472CID > GhostZ
02/04/2015 at 11:53

Kinja'd!!!

If it's only about racing you'd get some interesting sports cars.

TheStigFarmer > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:53

A sports car is a blanket term for a car where one of the major focuses is driver enjoyment/involvement.

trying to define is... tricky, because defined categories are extremely fluid and several can apply to a single model. A car can be more than one thing at a time.

I would call bigass AMG/Hellcat/RS quattro four doors muscle cars and 'super'-saloons at the same time. And when is a hot hatch not a "sports car"? the old Cossie Impreza wants a word with you.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
02/04/2015 at 11:55

Monoposto

TheStigFarmer > TheStigFarmer
02/04/2015 at 11:55

Like this:

Sports Car > Hatchback > 'Super'hatch (lol maybe not) > Subaru Cosworth CS400

Sports Car > Hatchback > Hot Hatchback > Ford Focus RS

Sports Car > Hatchback > Warm Hatchback > Fiat 500 Abarth

like an evolutionary tree.

Tripper > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:56

Haha right!

E. Julius > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 11:56

The conclusion I came to myself was pretty much this. I was pleasantly surprised when I came across it.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 11:57

Any S30, S130, Z31, or Z32 Nissan 'Z-car' with rear seats has an extended wheelbase, and a modified body. The body shell gets slightly heavier for the conversion... The compromise pushes the 2+2 versions to Sport Coupe or GT category, and out of the Sports Car category that the 2-seat car still qualifies for.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 12:01

Meant for handling and pure feedback for the driver.

A race car is a car built to compete, and be judged by time, not by driver satisfaction.

A sports car like Miata is still a sports car, regardless of track times, because it is built for driver satisfaction at the level for which it is specified.

Sports cars are more subjective, and usually used on public roads, rather than race cars that are better or worse judged by their time-based performance on a track.

Sports cars often make good conversions to Race cars, but they are not the same thing, and there are non-sports-cars that also make fast and successful race cars, also.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 12:03

Racing is a sport, driving is not.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 12:06

Man, you're like... a dictator. Or something.

TheHondaBro > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 12:08

I thought we agreed to call them sports coupes.

472CID > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 12:10

I mostly agree, though I'm more lenient. For one I'd say the newer 911s are more sports car than ever, being sharper and faster. I'd have no problem calling a lot of 2+2s sports cars (ex. BRZ/944/GTR). I wouldn't rule out fwd, Lotus made a fwd sports car, and if anybody knows about sports cars it's Lotus.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > AJ Feldman (alecmets2011)
02/04/2015 at 12:11

Because it's a Pony Car.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 12:15

Hunting and fishing are sports, too. but not necessarily an athletic activity. There are sports that are not necessarily competitions or athletics.

How is driving in a performance context, but not in direct competition, and on public roads disqualified from being described as "sport driving"?

Sports cars are sold as street legal cars, for enthusiast driving on the street, within the law.

They can be used in competition, if desired, but aren't required to be, and they are not solely restricted to being race cars. Most sports cars sold, statistically never see the track.

A Race car may be street legal, but many are not, and the best ones can't be. Depending on the racing class, the format of the car may not even be allowed to be a sports-car derived platform, such as DTM that uses sedans, or various formats that race pickup trucks. One might even argue that racing prototypes are race cars, and idealized, but something aside from being a sports car.

TheBaron2112 > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 12:22

The older ones were, definitely. The 930 turned into a supercar with its properties. But once it went all soft and driveable, it became a GT.

TheBaron2112 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer
02/04/2015 at 12:23

Yeah, the 996 is iffy. I don't know. I just can't stop thinking of fried eggs when I think of it.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 12:23

Does it have 2 seats? Is it RWD? Was the car initially designed so that it could go racing?

If, "Yes," is the answer to all of the questions in that order then it is a sportscar.

If, "No," to any then it is not a sportscar.

FrankAtlanta > Aaron M - MasoFiST
02/04/2015 at 12:25

Agreed!

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 12:30

Porsche 911s are great performance cars, and have consistently gotten faster. Sharper might be a bit of conjecture. They are also much larger, significantly heavier, more complex, and more opulently appointed than ever.

There is nothing saying that a Sport Coupe, or a Grand Touring Coupe is denied from behind faster than some sports cars, and perhaps even handling well also, but it doesn't speak to the car's focus and purpose, and ever since the demise of Porsche's Grand Touring coupe, the 928, subsequent 911 versions, 996, 997, and now 991, have successively edged into that sort of high-speed, well-appointed, long-distance capable performance road car role, and less of the elemental, bare-essentials performance focus.

Kinja'd!!!

The newer 911s are in many ways better than ever, but I am not sure who would say that the Cayman GT4 isn't the purer sports car, compared to 991. Only GT3-RS may still hold an edge, due to it's yet-higher power level, and statistically faster PDK gearbox.

Kinja'd!!!

Lotus Elan (FWD) was built for Lotus, by Isuzu, and while it was a sporty car, a performance car, and a roadster, I would hesitate calling it a sports car, just as I would hesitate calling 91-94 Mercury Capri FWD roadster a sports car, where Miata is.

Lotus built 2+2 Elites, Carlton sport sedans, and others... Not every Lotus ever built has been a sports car, although they do built sports cars very well.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 12:38

Most sports cars are not designed strictly so that it can go racing.

The first two points, I wholly agree. I would re-work the third point to be initially designed to offer un-compromized handling.

Miatas, MGs, and other roadster sports cars were not generally fast enough to be greatly thought of as being built with racing in mind at the forefront.

As enthusiasts like to, they do take those cars racing, sometimes in their own spec classes to even the playing field, but there are non-sports-car performance cars that are better race-intended cars than some sports cars.

A 2016 Mustang GT350, or the existing Zeta Camaro Z28 are intended for racing, but they are large chassis cars, built as 2+2 chassis, and what I would classify as a sport coupe. (longer and heavier than a Ford GT, or a Chevy Corvette, two sports cars, in comparison)

2016 Mazda Miata is still a roadster sports car, despite not being geared for the track, and with only 150-ish horsepower, because it is still built for handling purity and driving enjoyment at it's specification level, albeit FAR, FAR below that of a GT350 or Z28, that aren't strictly sports cars.

Some sports cars make good race cars, others aren't as focused on track capabilities, so it isn't a uniform classification criteria.

All sports cars ARE designed for driver feedback and handling, inherent in their specific chassis design, regardless of horsepower level, regardless of price, regardless of track intent. It does cover all sports cars, and does qualify as a classification criteria.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 12:44

I'm not saying that it was necessarily designed to fit into a spec series or any series for that matter. Just that it could go racing.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 13:22

Sedans, wagons, pickup trucks, semi-tractors, motorcycles, and all sorts of other vehicles can go racing, and sometimes do. It isn't specific enough to be a classification criteria for what a sports car is or is not, though. It doesn't precisely fit the scope.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 13:25

Yes, all of those can be raced, however a sportscar is designed so that it could go racing.

kms1990 > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 13:30

an awd 330hp hatchback is a sports car a subaru wrx sti a focus rs are sports cars. a ferrari or a mustang are "classic sports cars" as in shape is 2 door if a focus rs can keep up with a mustang, camaro, corvette ect its a sports car focus st (75 or so less hp and torque than the rs will have and only fwd) 0-60: 5.9 sec camaro (2013 ss) 0-60: 4.7 sec (MT) which is just 1.2 seconds faster dodge challenger (2012 r/t) 0-60: 5.5 sec only .4 seconds faster 2012 nissan 370z (nismo) 0-60: 4.7 sec again only 1.2 seconds faster 2013 mustang (gt 5.0) 0-60: 4.4 sec only 1.5 seconds faster 2009 impreza (wrx sti) 0-60: 5.0 sec

how are ht hatches not sports cars?

kms1990 > ranwhenparked
02/04/2015 at 13:32

hot hatches are for people like myself who need a car to use for day to day and want a sports car but cannot afford one or cannot afford 2 cars. a hot hatch is a sports car. its designed to make a functional hatchback handle a track and take on sports cars.

kms1990 > ranwhenparked
02/04/2015 at 13:33

how? they are the same car one just has a bench bolted behind the front seats? your definition of a sports car is stupid. by your logic is a standard cab truck a truck and a crew cab not?

kms1990 > MIATAAAA
02/04/2015 at 13:34

no thats a sports car a sports car is a car designed to handle a track and be run fast a focus rs a camaro a 370z a gtr a porche 911 ect are all sports cars just on different brackets

kms1990 > For Sweden
02/04/2015 at 13:38

sports car

An automobile designed for high speed and power, tight handling, and flashy looks.

Hot hatch

Hot hatch is a high-performance derivative of a car body style consisting of a three- or five-door hatchback automobile. Vehicles of this class are based on family-oriented automobiles, and are equipped with an uprated more powerful internal combustion engine, improved suspension, and may also include additional 'aerodynamic' body parts and larger wheels and tyres. Front-mounted petrol engines, together with front-wheel drive, is the most common powertrain layout, although some can be specified as diesel-powered, and rear or four-wheel drive hot hatches are also available.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 13:46

As I said, so are other cars, that don't otherwise fit the Sports Car definition.

I mentioned Mustang GT350 and Camaro Z28. They are not sports cars, not based on sports cars, yet ARE designed specifically for racing, and to be raced.

Miatas are not designed BY MAZDA to be the best race cars that platform is capable of being, they are designed for driver feedback and handling, but not racing. The fact that people do race them is ancillary, and after the fact... and if they weren't in their own spec class, they would be obliterated by other non-sports-cars that happen to be faster, even if they aren't as good at driver feedback and have pragmatic compromises in their chassis design.

"designed so that it could go racing" is a scope that includes non-sports-cars, and dis-includes some cars that are considered sports cars, so it cannot be an accurate criteria for defining what a sports car is, and excluding what a sports car is not.

That doesn't mean that non-sports-cars, race cars, sport coupes, GT coupes, sport sedans, are inferior, they just fall under a different definition.

This is a CLASSIFICATION, not a value judgement, or some sort of denial of other formats and other usage patterns.

If a classification criteria doesn't fit, it can't adequately define it's class, and then nobody knows what other people are precisely referring to...

Like this whole thread. The vocabulary has been so tortured and twisted, that the reasoning behind the vocabulary term 'Sports Car' is drastically ambiguous, that we have to have to drag this discussion out periodically, and hash out the intricacies of vocabulary definitions, classification methodologies, and exceptions within the subject matter.

A race car is what a race car is. A sports car can be a race car. Any performance car sub-type can usually be a race car. Not all race cars are sports cars, not all sports cars are race cars, they are distinct classifications that can't be equivocally tied to each other. They have to be defined on their own terms, not defined based on each other, circularly.

ranwhenparked > kms1990
02/04/2015 at 13:50

A hot hatch is a hot hatch, it is its own thing. A sports car alternative or sports car substitute, but not a sports car.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 13:50

Which are eliminated by the other 2 qualifications.

ranwhenparked > kms1990
02/04/2015 at 13:53

It isn't enough to just take the backseat out, but if there's some sort of restyling done - a new tonneau cover, shortened wheelbase, reshaped roofline to go along with the reduced seat count, than, yes, a 2 seat variant of an otherwise 4 seat car could count as a sports car, whereas the 4 seater would still be a GT.

I don't see where you bring trucks into this. Door and seat counts have nothing to do with the definition of a pickup truck, if it has a bed on the back, its a pickup.

Doors and seats do have a lot to do with a sports car though. If it has more than 2 seats and more than 2 doors, it can't be a sports car. It can be something in the sports car ballpark, something on the same family tree, but not a true sports car.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 14:01

Kinja'd!!!

2-seat. Check

RWD. Check.

Designed that it could go racing... Yup.

This is not a sports car.

Kinja'd!!!

2-seat. check

RWD. check.

Designed that it could go racing... ~148hp stock. I suppose so... but it isn't winning against ANYTHING but itself. It is *DESIGNED* as a fun, lightweight road car.

If it were designed as a race-ready car from the clean sheet up, it would be designed and built at least optionally as a more rigid coupe, and with a better power to weight ratio, as the chassis is more than up to the job, and engines are capable of much more output than this.

If this is designed for racing capability... it is FAR from ideal to that purpose. About as far as a car CAN be, while still being a rear-driven light-weight 2-seater, which IS A Sports Car.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 14:07

No semi truck was designed that it could go racing. So that is eliminated.

The Miata was designed so that it could go racing, so it is a sportscar.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 14:14

That truck sure wasn't designed for much cargo, being that small, and without a hitch or anything... And it proves my point that ANYTHING can go racing. And it would not surprise me that there are tractor models that are particularly well suited to competition, and compromised in terms of cargo capability.

I have already illustrated that Mazda did NOT make racing-oriented decisions, and actually quite the opposite in Miata's design and specification, and have repeatedly said that racing Miatas after the fact, is ancillary.

Racing semi trucks is ALSO ancillary, and after the fact, and for any success in their respective classes, BOTH require SIGNIFICANT modifications from their original configuration and intent to be successful racing vehicles.

One is a sports car, the other is not. Racing doesn't factor in to that classification. I am not sure how much CLEARER I can be.

JT > 472CID
02/04/2015 at 14:16

You may want to also note there is no such thing as a Honda Integra. It's an Acura Integra, which is obviously the higher end division of Honda, but c'mon dude, at least try to show a little bit of credibility in your article by being factually accurate.

AJ Feldman (alecmets2011) > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 14:40

I've always considered a Pony car a type of sports car

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
02/04/2015 at 14:41

That truck also only has 1 seat.

472CID > JT
02/04/2015 at 14:43

I do hope you're weirdly joking

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > AJ Feldman (alecmets2011)
02/04/2015 at 14:43

Well, it's wrong.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
02/04/2015 at 14:47

Some Miata spec cars and other sports-cars turned race cars ditch the passenger seat if the rules allow, too.

The factory built truck had two. The stock factory built Miata is also not a Spec Miata race car, and not a very good race car otherwise.

racing or race capability is still independent of a sports car definition.

wiffleballtony > TheBaron2112
02/05/2015 at 00:54

You're one of those muscle car vs pony car pedantics too I bet.

wiffleballtony > 472CID
02/05/2015 at 00:57

Any car designed originally to be for performance first and other considerations second. A car designed as an economy car but with a sport version is disqualified.

Flavien Vidal > For Sweden
02/05/2015 at 04:34

Then the R5 Turbo 2 is not a sports car? What about the Sti or the Evo? Econoboxes? A hothatch is a sports car based on a practical vehicule... That does not make it any less of a sports car.

If we listened to some people, the only sports cars that exist would be 2 seater RWD cars only (Leaving therefore the 911 or the GTR out of it by the way). That just does not make much sense to me.